I can’t find the link to the correct Jordan Peterson talk, but he talks about what happens if someone kills your son, so you kill his wife and daughter, then he kills your sister, cousin, brother and mother, and so on, with escalating results until you have complete chaos and a bloodbath.
As Peterson explains it, the law is there to punish the guilty, protect society, avenge the innocent and — just as importantly — take away your responsibility of vengeance.
Hammurabic law postulated, among other things, that if a judge wrongly convicted a man to death, the judge had to be hanged too — thus making the decision important not just to the family of the wrongly convicted, but to the law and its enforcers.
In Mario Puzo’s The Godfather, when the undertaker’s teenage daughter is raped and beaten up by a group of young men, and the young men are set free without serious punishment, the undertaker says to Don Corleone (and I paraphrase): “The young men were freed by the law — but there was no justice for my daughter.”
Let me apply all three principles to our world today.
We all know that several criminals have been released from prison after a minimal period of incarceration, or freed by Soros prosecutors / liberal justices with minimal or no bail, and these criminals have gone on to commit the same, equivalent or even worse crimes soon thereafter — sometimes within hours of release.
They, in other words, have benefited from the law (whether rightly or wrongly applied is irrelevant, the outcome is the same), but their victims have received no justice.
Under Hammurabic law, the prosecutors would themselves be imprisoned / executed for the subsequent murders; the parole boards would be likewise punished for the crimes committed by the freed parolees. But of course, we know that sadly, none of this will ever happen (unless I become World Emperor, in which case…).
So while the law has been ignored, misapplied, twisted, or even broken, the victims of these crimes have received no justice from the judicial system and its agents.
Now remember this part: “the law is there to… take away your responsibility of vengeance”?
At some point soon, it will come as no surprise to me that the families of victims may seek to take revenge — in the absence of the law’s application — upon the people who are responsible for the criminals’ actions: prosecutors, judges, parole board members, whoever. And it will be no use wringing hands and wailing about people “taking the law into their own hands” or “becoming a lynch mob” or anything like that, because when the law breaks down and does not fulfill any of its duties to society, ordinary people are going to seek their own vengeance.
What’s more, I will refuse to condemn their actions, because as far as I’m concerned, these legal charlatans deserve their fate, all of it. It’s not even a question of saying, “Well, I deplore their actions but I sympathize with their feelings.”
I’m going to applaud their actions, because at the end, what alternatives did they have?
I just feel sorry for the people who are going to be driven to exact the vengeance that the law failed or refused to provide, because they are going to be fully punished, you betcha.
This dam is going to burst, and it’s going to happen sooner than anyone thinks.
Good movie about justice denied. “The Jack Bull”.
If I remember correctly, in the Godfather the undertaker wanted those men killed. But Don Corleone said no and only had the men brutally beaten because that was the justice they deserved.
“An eye for an eye” in the Old Testament was meant to limit punishment, not prescribe it. This in order to prevent the very escalation you describe.
The other outcome from your revenge scenario above is that people will stop going to the law first and simply handle it on their own. Once we know the law is useless, we’ll be right back to the old family feud days. Like the old joke, a man with a gun catches a robber in his house. Several silent minutes go by and finally the robber asks “aren’t you gonna call the cops?” The man answers “Why? No one else knows you’re here.”
Must be something in the air, as I have been considering things along the same thought lines recently.
There is a rancher in southern Arizona who is currently being held under an unreachable $1million bail because an ILLEGAL migrant who was trespassing on his land ended up the dead victim of a gunshot. The prosecutors are piling on charges upon charges against the elderly rancher who is languishing behind bars while his equally old wife is left to run the ranch by herself in his absence.
Not to argue the rancher’s guilt or innocence, but where is the justice here? Who is looking out for his wife and property? We have prosecutors releasing thugs with long records of lawlessness for little or no bail. Repeat criminals are pushed back across the border only to be rearrested soon after for the same or worse crimes.
I do not know the rancher’s politics, but it would be a safe bet to say he’s conservative. He has found himself in the unenviable position of running afoul of the liberal Soros-woke “justice” system that infests southern Arizona. He is doomed. His family will be driven from their land. anything his family has of any value will be surrendered to lawyers and even if he manages to beat the murder and assault charges currently against him, soon will come the accusations of racism and inevitable federal hate crime violations that will break him.
He has been chosen to be “an example.” The system will hound him, will impoverish him, will drive him down until he is dead. There is little proof that he actually did the deed, and his lawyers are trying their best in his defense, but the legal deck is stacked against him. Why? Because he is an old man. He will be easy to persecute. He has done his best to follow the law and believe in America. Then Biden took office and decided that there will be no borders anymore, and no laws to protect the citizens.
The saddest part of this story is that something similar could happen to any of us.
Any. Of. Us.
I think that’s where this “This dam is going to burst” comes in.
Once everyone realizes the “law” isn’t about justice, they’ll take care of business and when the “law” comes to punish them for it, they’ll take care of them, too.
Not really the world I want to live in, but here we are.
Yes, we have a “legal system”, but we do not have a “justice” system.
If you don’t believe that, observe how different people are treated differently for the same offense.
you’re absolutely right.
The legal system is being used as a weapon against productive members of society. Productive members of society have some limited assets while gang bangers have nothing to lose than some crummy clothes and a car in someone else’s name.
This rancher needs to be out of jail on bond. He has property and ties to the community so it’s unlikely he’s going to flee the legal system.
JQ
I believe this is a link to the story Murphy mentioned
https://lawandcrime.com/crime/innocent-arizona-rancher-files-full-throated-defense-after-mexican-national-shot-dead-on-property/
you’re absolutely right Kim. We have a legal system where justice is rarely, if ever, involved.
JQ
Said to me over 4 decades ago from a lawyer –
‘Our legal system has NOTHING to do with justice !’
I’ve never forgotten it. This type of multi tiered ‘punishment is dependent
on the depth of your pockets and/or who you know’ has been going on for
a L O N G time and only now because of the widespread availability of ‘news
about anything and everything on demand’ are more and more people
starting see it.
I think Mr. Kim is right. At some point because of some legal atrocity or
simply miscarriage the fuse will be lit and when that happens it will spread
like a grass fire on a windy day in Texas and there will be no stopping it !
Keep your head down if you want to keep your head, etc etc etc !
From Justin Castro’s Canada the other day: 5 home invaders break in, at least one of them is armed. Armed intruder is shot dead by the resident. Resident is getting rung up on murder charges.
https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/man-22-charged-with-murder-after-fatally-shooting-suspect-who-tried-to-rob-his-house-lawyer-says-1.6281531
The Canucks keep voting Marxist, so I’m pretty much out of sympathy for them. Except to the extent that the blue sheeple in our neck of the woods are hell bent replicating that bullshit here. Kim’s right: we are approaching critical mass.
Excellent post.
It’s not going to be pretty, or fun for anyone, but the way things are going with justice routinely denied and ancient freedoms infringed, it’s also looking increasingly inevitable.
I keep hearing on multiple sites how the people in mass will have enough and rise up. BULLSHIT, It will not happen. The sheeple will never do it and the so called right has allowed their cherished christian religions in the guise of keeping their tax free status to make them lazy,weak and morally corrupt with no real balls anymore. I talked to a evangelical pastor a few years ago on why they allow it and dont really try and stop the commies and the answer was it just speeds up Jesus return and the true believers will all go to heaven. Which is the same thing I heard from a jihadi in Iraq in the early 2000’s, what a fucking bunch of idiots. Both of them refused to answer my question of what if you are wrong and its just everyone dies? How anyone can say they believe in any loving god and be a part of the various current christian religious groups I will never understand.
I spent my life defending this country around the planet and now I understand it was all a waste of time and we were actually the bad guys in it all…
Now the only people I will defend is my family and very close friends, the rest of the country can burn, they did it to themselves. I gleefully await that moment. The statement that a people get the government that they deserve is never more true than now.
Maybe if everyone were made to read ALEKSANDR SOLZHENITSYN and sit and talk to folks coming from the communist countries about how it never becomes PURE socialism or communism maybe just maybe things could have been different.
But this man is truly a generation thinker and everyone should be FORCED to read this quote daily and made to understand what it symbolizes.
“AND HOW WE BURNED IN THE CAMPS LATER, THINKING: WHAT WOULD THINGS HAVE BEEN LIKE IF EVERY SECURITY OPERATIVE, WHEN HE WENT OUT AT NIGHT TO MAKE AN ARREST, HAD BEEN UNCERTAIN WHETHER HE WOULD RETURN ALIVE AND HAD TO SAY GOOD-BYE TO HIS FAMILY? OR IF, DURING PERIODS OF MASS ARRESTS, AS FOR EXAMPLE IN LENINGRAD, WHEN THEY ARRESTED A QUARTER OF THE ENTIRE CITY, PEOPLE HAD NOT SIMPLY SAT THERE IN THEIR LAIRS, PALING WITH TERROR AT EVERY BANG OF THE DOWNSTAIRS DOOR AND AT EVERY STEP ON THE STAIRCASE, BUT HAD UNDERSTOOD THEY HAD NOTHING LEFT TO LOSE AND HAD BOLDLY SET UP IN THE DOWNSTAIRS HALL AN AMBUSH OF HALF A DOZEN PEOPLE WITH AXES, HAMMERS, POKERS, OR WHATEVER ELSE WAS AT HAND?… THE ORGANS WOULD VERY QUICKLY HAVE SUFFERED A SHORTAGE OF OFFICERS AND TRANSPORT AND, NOTWITHSTANDING ALL OF STALIN’S THIRST, THE CURSED MACHINE WOULD HAVE GROUND TO A HALT! IF…IF…WE DIDN’T LOVE FREEDOM ENOUGH. AND EVEN MORE – WE HAD NO AWARENESS OF THE REAL SITUATION…. WE PURELY AND SIMPLY DESERVED EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED AFTERWARD.” – ALEKSANDR SOLZHENITSYN
He said it all!
I know I’m late to the party, but as a former prosecutor, and current defense attorney, I have to say something.
First – all of you are right. We have a “legal” system, not a “justice” system. And like any human-made system, it is subject to abuse and misapplication, corruption and stupidity. It’s far from perfect; but remember: there are no perfect human systems. Perfect is reserved for God.
The primary reason we do “law,” not “justice,” is that justice is like beauty: impossible to define and subject entirely to the eye of the beholder. We can’t define justice in any coherent and widely agreeable fashion. It’s entirely subjective. Law, on the other hand, is reasonably definable, most of the time. It’s not always entirely clear, but it’s far more definable and applicable than “justice.”
So we do law, and we hope that something that looks like justice comes out on the other side. It’s not always neat, or “just,” whatever that is, but it beats the alternative: a society with no rules, where petty arguments and actual or perceived wrongs are righted by those with the ability to do so, at their discretion and in any manner they choose. Vigilantism, however satisfying it may seem, cannot work in a civilized society, particularly one armed to the teeth, and one that believes (at least we say we do) in the concept of individual rights and due process.
There is another way to put all this, and it comes, I think, from Glen Reynolds: “Police do not exist to protect the public from criminals; they exist to protect the criminals from the public.” The unspoken corollary to that, of course, is that if the police – and by extension, the legal system – do not do a reasonably adequate job doing what is broadly seen or will accept as “justice,” most of the time, even with its inevitable faults, at some point the citizenry will do it itself. God help us if it comes to that. It’s a cure to injustice, sure enough. But it may well be a cure worse than the disease.
What the legal system is supposed to do is replace revenge and vigilantism with legal “justice,” such as it is. It replaces our dispensation of justice for a justice done under law by the State, in the name of the State. Prosecutions are brought not by victims, but by the State, under the State’s law. Sometimes it’s poor and imperfect substitute, but the alternative is worse.
What are you smoking, cuz I want some of it. I get your distinction between law and justice, but things are not what they were when you were in the biz. Now there’s not only no justice, there’s no law! Watch the many vids of people being brutally beaten in our cities now with no bail for the perps, no jail time. We are living in a dystopian Escape From New York type movie. No, sir. Vigilante justice is worse than what you remember. But it is better than the lawlessness we have now. What Kim describes is MUCH better than the shitshow that passes for the law now.
Stop seeing the world through rose colored glasses and see it as it really is. Today. Then go watch the movie Peppermint. Relative to what we have in NYC or Chicago today? I’ll take Peppermint all the time. I especially like that the detective gives her the cuff keys at the end.
Bring it! We need it. And if the riots start again? Would love to see citizens mowing them down with shotguns, nothing takes the wind out of their sails like a dozen of their comrades bleeding out in the gutter. And when the police try to arrest them? I’m hoping the vigilantes decide not to be arrested that day.
I, too, am surprised it hasn’t already started. And I am in mind of Col Cooper’s famous quote on violence begets violence. I hope so!
JC
You’re absolutely right.
JQ
Do you want Committees for Vigilance? Because this is how you get Committees for Vigilance.
First rule of Committee for Vigilance is you do NOT talk about Committee for Vigilance.
re — escalate/deescalate
.
On Survivalist Boards, a poster asks:
* What Do You Think Will Be The End Of Life As We Know It?
.
My response — Post Number 200 — suggests the cessation of LawEnforcementOfficials, leading to the near-instant elimination of the ‘protected class’… crooks, addicts, welfare and other slackers, plus pretty much everybody in any level of any government.
.
From that point, our old life fades, and becomes mixed memories of hurts and ills with ancient recollections of friends and family, dogs and hot-rods, and sleeping through the night.
Our new life simply introduces a different set of stories.
.
All this is, of course, merely suppositions and dreams.
Nothing bad happens to bad people.
.
http://www.survivalistboards.com/threads/what-do-you-think-will-be-the-end-of-life-as-we-know-it.990396/page-10
Cant believe I’m saying this but. I agree with the lawyer in some ways. In that LE are not there to stop crime just investigate them and that they protect the criminals from us. Look at the bad perps wearing body armor in the courtroom shots. When was the first or last time someone from the right who was arrested for a BS charge was given body armor, funny how they don’t get it.
BTW, LE and even the military today are there to protect other govt/political officials first and foremost in case of bad times. I have personal knowledge of that mission.
BUT, Now I very much disagree on Vigilantism and its effects. You cant tell me after the first or 2nd public lynching of a pedophile or violent criminal in front of city hall, that other scumbags wont think twice about committing crimes in that area. Or the public beating that leaves some scumbag who mugged a elderly widow in a wheelchair for life for all to see wont change things. I Call BULLSHIT, They WILL move on to easier locations.
Look at the FBI data on interviews and the documentary interviews with really bad folks on it with various criminals why they did what they did and where they did it. They went where it was easy and the chance of punishment was low.
Life in prison doesn’t scare bad folks anymore. Look at the stats of areas with strong castle doctrine and armed citizens and their crime rates. Punishment especially deadly force reduces crime.
In my military career I have been all over the world, I have taken American military to foreign prisons to serve terms. I have see multiple other countries punishments for crimes especially the death sentence. The repeat rates are very low. What criminal wants to be beheaded in Saudi Arabia. Who wants to be shot in Asia and the family billed for the bullets. In Indonesia they cane criminals for minor crimes, once you have that done to you, doing the crime ain’t worth it for most.
The US citizens belief in Rule of Law is all that keeps vengeance at bay. But now who can truthfully say there is ROL in the US today. So now the question is how long will people take this bullshit?
The Constitution shows that the People and the States delegated specific powers to the National Government, which is in a Federal form.
Every Constitutional law case ever decided in Federal Court should begin with a determination that the power under review is a power specifically delegated to the Feds. THEN the Constitution should be examined to see if it was proper.
Under Agency law, if the Agent breaches its duty to the Principal, the Principal is able to act in its own interests and need not act to compel the Agent to act.
If the Police and the Courts act in contravention of the interests and rights of the People, the People can take back the powers delegated to the Government. The Protected Class (criminals and elected officials, but I repeat myself) will not like it, but it is within the law.
As the Marines in “Battle Cry” by Leon Uris said quoting the Russian Marines, “Toughsky Shitsky.”