From Longtime Friend & Reader Dave L. comes this excellent thought about carry guns:
I have a couple of nice carry pieces, including an Officer’s Model Kimber .45 and a Smith 640 which dates back to my wheel gun days.
Of late I’ve been thinking about what would happen if I did a bad guy during a church service. I’m very confident that I wouldn’t be charged with anything because Oklahoma and Baptists, but I remember from my sheriff days that firearms used in a shooting, even a totally righteous one by a retired deputy, have a way of disappearing into the system and never showing up again. I guess the DA can brag that he took another gun off the street.
With that idea in mind I started thinking about a lower priced pistol that wouldn’t bother me when it went into the evidence room.
After a lot of research I bought a Taurus G3C as my church gun.
In the past most gun people had nothing good to say about Taurus, but that reputation goes back 30 or 40 years when their quality was somewhat questionable. My son bought a PT92 Beretta clone about 20 years ago which has given him excellent service. I don’t care for the feel of the gun – I think that I’m shooting a brick – but it feeds everything and goes bang every time.
The G3 definitely isn’t pretty and we old timers don’t have much to say in favor of polymer pistols. Even so, the gun runs all of the time, every time and is more than accurate enough for my 71 year old eyes. I carry it in a Kydex inside the belt holster and have two spare magazines in my left front pants pocket (that’s my old school sheriff training showing). I’ve got it loaded with 115 grain Israeli Military Industries hollow points because the Israelis should know something about putting down terrorists and bad guys.
Should I need to use the pistol for the betterment of society, I don’t feel that I’ll be out a lot of money when it disappears into the system. I pity the poor fool who decides to rob the collection plates or make a political statement in our church. (We have a church member who is a town PD officer and he provides paid security during our Sunday morning services. We also have at least 8 or 10 retired law enforcement officers (myself included) and serious “constitutional” carriers who will act as backup for our PD guy should things ever go to shite.
Dave sure knows how to give me the Warm & Fuzzies, oh yes he does.
You know, it pains me to think that if some time I am forced to ventilate some choirboy, my treasured 1911 may disappear as described above.
It sucks, and there’s just no justification for such an event even when, as Dave says, the shooting is completely Righteous.
And frankly, I’m not that interested in getting a cheap gun as a “throwaway” so to speak, because if I need to shoot someone, I want to be sure that my gun will work every single fucking time, with no asterisks. I know very well that my life may depend on the gun, which is why I never stint on quality — but to see it just vanish… you get my point, I think.
Maybe we gun owners should have a friendly chat about this topic with our local lawmakers and get some legislation in place to allow for the speedy return of our guns — e.g. the court case happens, everything turns out well (for the law-abiding citizen, of course), and he’s given a pat on the back and told he’s a free man.
In that case: what’s wrong with his gun being returned to him within 24 hours of the verdict — with stiff penalties for the relevant PD if this doesn’t happen? I’d like to think that the local PD would be happy to follow such a law, but at the same time, I’m a realist and the chance of a grandstanding DA behaving as Dave describes is more the way to bet than the other.
I know I have a couple lawyers (nay even prosecutors and defense attorneys) among my Readers, so if any of youse guys care to comment on my suggestion, have at it.
An adjacent topic that may occur more commonly than righteous shootings is the requirement to ditch a weapon in a non-permissive environment. One might like to be armed, but would prefer not to toss one’s favorite BBQ gun down the storm drain in some hellhole like NJ or CA to avoid discovery. We can admire the ability of Schlichter’s Kelly Turnbull to keep possession of his beloved Wilson .45 despite all circumstances, but still realize that’s a macho fantasy. “Gun as disposable tool” goes against our instincts but may be our reality down the road.
On the few occasions that people ask me for advice, I have always advocated that your carry piece should be a pistol that you won’t mind losing. It’s going to be confiscated as evidence. You may or may not get it back depending on your local and state PD. So, instead of that $3000 Wilson Combat, how about a nice $500 or $600 Rock Island Armory or Springfield 1911. And I see that hammer fired compact pistols are making a resurgence in the market. Being an old FUD, I like my pistols to have an external safety and hammer fired. I do NOT like the trigger blade safeties that are so popular today. They are only safeties if nothing touches the trigger while manipulating the firearm. Fine for the range, but I won’t carry one. But I digress. There is a whole field of new polymer guns that are relatively inexpensive, reliable, and have the features that anyone could want. So, if you lose your carry piece to the evidence locker, you can go out and buy another one with all the same features very easily.
No 2 ways about it, you have to have TWO of whatever gun you carry and whatever gun you carry must be the one you have trained with the most and are most comfortable with.
In Lee County, FL, about 2002 almost 300 guns went missing from the sheriff’s dept evidence locker. The only reason this became known when it did was because a sheriff’s deputy was caught selling them at a gun show.
I went to school with that deputy 30 years prior and he was a shitstain way back then too. I’d like to think he was still sitting in the shitcan.
Once, after being attacked by a rottweiler in the suburban city limits while walking my 2 leashed mutts, I called the sheriff dept and asked them what I could do. They said if I was licensed to carry (I was) I can shoot the attacker.
They also told me that if I fired a gun inside the city limits my gun would be impounded pending an investigation. That confirmed to me that everyone needs at least 2 guns at all times.
The Taurus is only about $300, but the M&P Shield (with a thumb safety) can also be found for $400 or so, and I have no complaints about mine. If I ended up losing mine for reasons like the ones listed above, I’d be pissed, but it wouldn’t be a disaster.
I also carry the S&W Shield for the same reason, albeit without the thumb safety as I’m a lefty and detest non-ambi pistols.
As for Kim’s recommended solution, remember that it can take years, YEARS, for a simple case to wind its way thru court. I’d rather the po-po hold onto a cheap plastic pistol for those years while I continue to carry a second cheap plastic pistol until such time as they deign to give it back (or not, as those things go).
So far my Shield has been spotless in the “always goes bang” dept.
I got my M&P Shield for $300 including 3 magazines, a red laser, and a nice carry case on a Black Friday special. Nice gun. I’d also be pissed if I lost it, but I’d just get another.
If I found such a deal nowadays, I’d buy one in a heartbeat. Maybe two.
I find it disturbing that everyone seems to cheerfully accept the government stealing their property.
My thoughts exactly. Hence my suggestion for a law to protect the gun owner.
I don’t think any of us are “cheerfully” accepting it, we’re simply evaluating the situation at hand and dealing with it as needed, however grudgingly. Plus it gives us an excuse to buy yet another gun.
As for your the suggestion for a new law, I agree in principle, however I also know that some cases take forever to wind their way thru court. I had a simple assault by contact charge (class C misdemeanor, I “touched” someone who didn’t like it during a custody dispute) and that drug on for two years before being dismissed. Had they confiscated a pistol, and then returned it in 24 hrs after the dismissal, that’s still 2 years that they would have held it according to your proposed law. Plenty of time for a high end 1911 to “disappear” from storage. Or get returned beat all to hell and rusted up.
You already have that, but it’s mostly ignored.
To the point Uncle Kenny brings up, for a few years I was travelling out to San Fransicko every month or so for a few days. Because of their multiple vectors of idiocy, I purchased an LCP in 380. The airlines wouldn’t give me grief about it in a checked bag, it practically disappeared in pocket of dress pants, and if I needed to I’d throw it down a storm drain.
I had enough experience with it to know that it was about as reliable as a pocket gun was going to get, and it is definitely a “bad breath distance” gun.
I agree that laws should be changed so that they benefit those acquitted at trial but like others have pointed out, trials take a long time to get completed. Also, I don’t like the idea that my fate or the fate of my property be at the whim of a lifetime appointee to the bench. This is even more abhorrent in blue states with bleeding heart liberals put in their black robes.
Dave L does bring up a good point. The thing is that you probably don’t want your prized Nighthawk or Wilson Combat going to the evidence locker and you probably can’t depend on your Jennings Saturday Night Special to protect your life. Somewhere between is the right answer for each of us. I want quality to get the job done when needed yet I don’t want that quality to hurt the wallet when my property gets stolen by the police department under the guise of law. Thank God we have many options to choose from whether it’s revolvers or automatic pistols of various flavors.
All good points.
Had an uncle who was murdered in Georgia. During the course of the investigation, Massachusetts cops came across his Dan Wesson .357 with interchangeable barrels before my cousin got it out of his house. Disappeared never to be seen again. (May have been his ex-wife who gave them to the cops even though she had no right to do it)
First: Yes, I’m a defense attorney. And I don’t mind saying so. My job is to keep the State honest, and we all know how honest governments are .(!)
So: yes, if you’re involved in a shooting, even if it is justified, your gun is likely to be held as evidence until either 1) the investigation is fully complete and the law enforcement agency AND the local prosecutor conclude that no charges are going to be brought (and perhaps they give you a parade for cooling a goblin to room temperature); 2) the investigation is mostly complete and charges are not brought, but they’re going to keep their options open in case there are new developments or the local prosecutor makes a contrary decision (see George Zimmerman) ; or 3) the trial is over, and you are acquitted.
At least in my jurisdiction, you’ll get your gun back, respectively 1) immediately after the investigation is complete; 2) at the close of the statute of limitations (here, that may be at the low end, 5 years; at the high end, never) or 3) at the conclusion of the trial, period. Appeal doesn’t matter; there is such a thing as double jeopardy, and an acquittal is not appealable, though that did not stop one idiot local prosecutor from trying).
And BTW – if you’re awaiting trial out on bond, you will almost certainly be barred from possessing ANY firearms (or drinking, BTW, so Kim, don’t shoot anyone here) as a condition of bond at least in my jurisdiction. So even a back-up piece doesn’t help.
As to a new law: That’s the law now; refusal to return non-contraband property after an acquittal would be theft. That doesn’t mean it won’t get disappeared, shit happens; if so, I’d file charges, with the State AG if necessary, and/or file a action for replevin (a fancy term for give me my stuff back). I’m not a fan of “there ought to be a law . . .” In most cases, there is legal recourse now, if actually used.
Everyone do what they like, of course, but I have two fairly expensive carry gun systems and I train with them, shoot IDPA with them, and basically love them. I don’t even give a thought to having them confiscated, I’m going with what I train with and enjoy using and carrying. The chances of us being involved in a defensive shooting are still probably vanishingly small, although ten times higher than they were just 3-5 years ago. Losing a carry gun would add insult to injury, but from what we’re likely to be dragged through even in totally justifiable defensive shoot, losing the gun will be the least of our worries. At least for me.
For Dave L. I got a 1,000 round case of that IMI 9mm HP a couple years ago. I forget where I read about the review, but I later learned that stuff almost NEVER expands. You’d think being Israeli, it would be great ammo, but it really sucks in the expansion department so you’re pretty much carrying 9mm ball. I shot all mine as range ammo after learning that.
I get the cheapest practice ammo I can for range practice, and practice as much as I can. But I don’t cheap out on the defensive carry ammo. I’d tell you what I use, but I’d rather folks just check out Chris Baker’s Lucky Gunner Ammo Labs there are dozens of very effective 9mm and .45 ACP (of course) rounds to choose from. Expensive? You bet it is. Worth it? You bet it is. I shoot my defensive ammo only about every 18 months to ensure I don’t get case setback, so I don’t spend a lot on it.
But I’d ditch the IMI ammo, if it were me. It’s absolute shite for defensive use.
I’d revise the above on IMI a little. I went looking for some gel test results and through clothing it may or may not expand. Looks great in bare gelatin, but probably a 50/50 expander through anything more than a t-shirt. There’s lots of better stuff out there, I wouldn’t carry it.
The attraction for me was the IMI name and assuming, as you did, it’s likely a superior performer simply because, well, it’s Izzy stuff. The Sig VCrown, Federal HST, Hornady Critical Duty stuff costs more, a lot more. But they all trounce the IMI in expansion reliability, and for the couple boxes I may shoot of it every couple years, I buy the good stuff for carry, and cheap fodder for practice. YMMV.
Another thing to consider is that (at least in some jurisdictions) your pistol being held as evidence is going to get electropencilled with the case number. So if you get it back, it will have been damaged (also including corrosion and other damage from poor storage conditions). So like many other commenters, I don’t carry a pistol that I’d hate to lose. In my case, a surplus military pistol (Czech CZ-82 in 9x18mm) is what I usually carry. They’re affordable, reliable, and if it has to go live in an evidence locker for many years I won’t really care.
I agree that the law should read as Kim has outlined.
In the meantime, I switched to a Glock for EDC to avoid the possibility of one of my Browning Hi Powers going into an evidence locker (or some cop’s private collection). I
know there are clones out there now, but Belgian made BHPs are rare and well out of my financial reach these days, while Glocks are readily available and (relatively) inexpensive, particularly if you look at the used and consignment areas of your local Merchant of Death.
I can relate to evidence room thefts. Three teen punks broke into my grandparent’s house back in the 60’s, and made off with his coin collection, which was kept in a large canvas bag. The collection was started by his great grandfather, and contained every non-gold coin except silver dollars minted in the USA, from all three mints, dating from 1797 until 1950 – half dollars, quarters, dimes, half-dimes, nickels, 2 cent, 3 cent pieces, most of them with multiple copies . I know, because I was fascinated by those old things, and inventoried the collection when I was 13 years old. The bag was so heavy with coins, it was hard for me to lift.
The cops caught the stupid zitfaces using the coins in vending machines, most of them unspent still in the bag. The bag went to the evidence room, a trial was held, one of the teens was a judge’s son, they all got off with probation, and when my grandfather went to reclaim his property – surprise – it was “lost” somehow in the evidence room.
Because the evidence room didn’t do a detailed inventory, and my list in a Composition notebook in pencil was deemed “a teen fancy”, my grandfather never recovered anything.
One coin I recall vividly, because it was the oldest of the biggest coins was a 1797 half dollar. It’s current selling price ranges $30,000 up.
There’s much to be said for being concerned about what happens to your stuff in a police evidence room, I would think especially for your seized carry in an antigun state.
My EDC is one I can afford to part with. I practice with all of them though.
I guess I don’t have any I would want to part with. But since illegals have more rights I sure hope one does not decide to relieve me of my property. I would just have to stick him. Would not be pretty, but knives Don’t miss them.
A gentleman I know picked up a lovely Python in a private purchase. Years later, he used it to hold a thief in his house while waiting for the police. They took the thief and the Python. Later, they came back and wanted to know where he got it – it had been used to kill a cop and was supposed to be languishing in their evidence locker. He had the bill of sale, and it turned out to be a former member of their force.
They kept the Python. When he requested it back, they explained that if he made any trouble, he would need to leave town. Jim had a new house, a new job, a new wife. He let them keep the Python.
For me, I got a Ruger Security 9. It cost me $400 for the pistol, 4 magazines and a laser. It’s not fancy, but it is solid.
This idea falls flat when we put it another way.
Would you buy a discount parachute? What about a first aid kit from the dollar store?
Get good gear.
Now if we are talking about a truly expensive gun (nice vacation, decent used car type money) then using it defensively is foolish. You don’t need to be packing a 5k nighthawk or a 3.5” registered magnum around. However a thousand dollar Springfield or Colt makes sense, certainly a $500 Glock/ etc all. If a once in a lifetime event happens just buy another one.
Ditto heirlooms. Great grandpa’s WWII take back or pops Police revolver are heirlooms that should be cherished.