The kids at GarandThumb have some fun shooting hollowpoints through heavy clothing to see if the old saying is true: that hollowpoints are “useless” (i.e. they don’t expand) when fired through thick winter clothing, because the hollowpoint cavity gets clogged up with material before entering the body.
My thoughts are below the fold.
From what I can see — and that test is really eye-opening — you may as well carry FMJ bullets in winter. Or else spend more money on those Hornady Critical Defense (HCD) numbers. (I love them, myself — I carry them in my S&W .38 backup piece, and am thinking about swapping out my regular .357 Mag ammo for the HCD.)
As for the 1911’s loads… hmmmm.
My regular carry .45 ACP is the Norma MHP 175gr:
However, when the snows of winter fall and everyone including bad guys will be walking around in heavy clothing, I may just carry the “first mag” (i.e. the one loaded in the 1911) stoked with the Hornady Critical Defense FTX 185gr instead.
Why only one mag’s worth? Because the FTX stuff costs over $1 / round, whereas my MHP cartridges originally cost me about 45c per pop, and I therefore have a jillion rounds of them in Ye Olde Ammoe Locquere. (Yeah, it was their introductory discount, and I took full advantage, I did.)
That, or I start practicing for “winter headshots”. (Hey, it’s a plan.)
I am, as most of you know, something of a conservative, ergo somewhat resistant to change. But when I’m confronted with actual data, I’m not at all reluctant to toss out my preconceptions and habits.
And this little test sure as hell made me think about it.
“Winter headshots” puts me in mind of a question. Recently I’ve seen more than one web discussion saying that a pause in the Mozambique between CofM x2 and head is tactically unsmart. Every time I see a discussion I ask myself … if you are going to worry about angels on the head of that pin, then why not just take the more effective shot first in all cases. Works for winter clothes, works for body armor, works for naked savages. Two in the face for the win. I don’t want to be asking myself, does this guy have on a heavy jacket or does he have a steel plate under his poncho?
Alternately, you could do as old Clint Smith suggested and go one in the crotch and one in the face, I suppose. In either case, the drill assumes you can hit the headshot, so just do so.
Exactly. A gent who spent a bit over a decade with one of those outfits that wears funny hats advocates using index cards as targets for training, as they’re about the right size for the “instant” off when taking a head shot, and they’re inexpensive.
Two in the center mass allow you to get the jitters/adrenaline dump out of the way, and make sure you put two in the target before going for the smaller, harder to hit target.
For anyone not hopped up on PCP, two FMJ equivalents might just stop them even in body armor, so get the higher percentage shots in first while you’re getting into it.
Everyone has seen the videos of cops completely missing targets with whole mag dumps at close range when under stress. Getting the adrenaline dump “out of the way” is not a thing. Shooting accurately despite it, might be.
See here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tfRNLJVfRqA
The only pause in the Mozambique is the time required to realign the sights from the chest to the head.
As one instructor once put it, the two to the chest are to get warmed up for the face shot. Or you could argue that the Mozambique is when you’re startled, and putting two in a larger target gets you over that reaction so you can “aim small”.
But yes, just shooting them in the face first is probably a faster and cheaper solution to the problem.
Kim, thanks for the video. I keep my EDCs (yes plural) loaded up with Hornady Critical Defense which also has the little red plug. I bought a whole bunch a while ago when it went on sale for ~80¢ a round. I also carry a spare mag on my weak side in the horizontal carrier from Magholder. Their carriers ride parallel to a belt and absolutely disappear under a cover garment. Love ’em. And for the record .. I have no financial interest in the Magholder company, etc.
– Brad
Don’t you live in Texas? I’m a little outside of Houston and I’m wearing a very light short-sleeved fishing shirt today. Our winter clothes season is just about over. We get one week on average, some years we might get two whole weeks of winter. When it’s actually cold I follow the Floridian style of hoodie, shorts and flip-flops. I’m pretty sure any hollow point will still work.
Jeez, the stuff some people worry about.
I don’t get the concern to he frank. If the hollow point doesn’t expand, it will just be like a FMJ. It is a good reason to use a relatively hot load with good penetration, but that is true with or without this data.
That has always been one of the arguments for 45 ACP. If it’s going to act like ball, it might as well be BIG ball.
This guy makes some good points–
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDmiLG4sO-k
My take is that cloth actually helps peel the brass petals back, in fact causing separation of the brass jacket from the lead core. See my reply below for a test of the bonded bullets.
Golden Saber Bonded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6b9AKde3t0Y
When introduced a couple of years ago the Norma MHP got my attention. At the time I lived in an East Coast communist state, so I did not have a handgun but did have a 9mm PCC for home defense. All well and good. Reviews were mixed as Kim noted with different tests but a PCC bumped the velocity up a couple hundred FPS. When I spoke to a Norma rep he said the MHP ammo was in fact designed specifically for carbines not pistols.
When I got to Arizona and purchased handguns I began to experiment with ammo. In short, in two Sig P365s (a std one and an X Macro) the MHP blew my mind when it failed to feed reliably. Its OAL seems to confound these pistols. I tried a half dozen other common brands and ALL feed perfectly with never a failure. Heavy, light, +P etc. I settled on standard pressure 124gr Gold Dot. I’m done for the handguns. But here is a twist. In my Ruger 9mm PCC the MHP rounds feed like pez candy. I have yet to have a feed problem. I’ve loaded a handful of glock 24 round magazines with the MHP and I am convinced they will wreck havoc on any organic target. It sits thus in my safe as a backup home defense gun next to my AR.
Luckygunner.com needs to update their ammunition tests in the Labs tab.
I tend to use Federal HST, Hornady Critical Defense, Critical Duty or one of their other offerings. I have also used WInchester Ranger or PDX1 from time to time. I haven’t tested their effectiveness.
I can’t shoot 45s because of my wrists, and I’ve moved down from a Beretta 92fs to a Bersa TPR9C and its shorter barrel. The Bersa fans have been obsessed about getting JHP rounds that perform well out of 3” barrels. Back when I first got that gun, I picked up a solid copper hollow point that quit getting made…
When the SCHP bullets started aging out, Hornady Critical Defense was out, and the 9mm performance for 3” barrels was acceptable. The only problem was my daughter’s Taurus didn’t like them, so I had to get her something else (Winchester USA Ready, I think, but it’s been a few years).